So according to this article, C&D says that the head of the M division has plans to lower the displacement and up the boost for M cars. This of course goes contrary to the M-lineup since conception, using NA cars to compete with Audi and MB's boosted S and AMG lines respectively. Does this mean that our friends in the fatherland have reached the end of the power band with naturally aspirated direct injected engines? Are they no longer able to compete without boosting? I'm curious what your collective thoughts are on this article, I mean we all love boost but this means the end of an era.

Of course I would love to see BMW put out a 1-series M with a twin turbo 4banger in the 2900# range. Is it even possible for them though? With all the amenities that are now expected under the roundel like leather, power-everything and *gasp* super safe cars. Of course we shouldn't expect anything for another 5 years, but is it really feasible?


Future BMW M Models and the 2010 BMW X6 M / X5 M - Interview

M is for muscle: We get the scoop on M models through 2015.

BY MICHAEL AUSTIN
June 2009



Like automakers everywhere, BMW is being squeezed by environmental issues (carbon-dioxide emissions, for one) and the need to improve the fuel economy of its fleet. What does this mean for the German automaker’s power-focused M division, with its fuel-hungry road gobblers? We recently asked *Ludwig Willisch, who heads the division.

Willisch told us that the next generation of M engines will have smaller displacement, which could mean less power. But turbocharging will help mitigate the decrease in displacement and should keep power levels about where they are today. And should the output drop, future products will lose pounds to maintain the power-to-weight ratios of today’s M products. Willisch even mentioned deleting somewhat heavy options such as power seats. Here’s what to expect from the M division in the next few years:

2009: M models of the X5 and X6 arrive this fall with an uprated version of BMW’s twin-turbocharged 4.4-liter V-8 that bristles with 21 psi of boost, 555 horsepower, and 500 pound-feet of torque at a low 1500 rpm. A new launch-control function enables ridiculous 0-to-60 times in the low fours.

2012: Willisch told us the M5 and M6 will have an engine that is similar in concept to the X5/X6 M but not the same—maybe a small-displacement twin-turbo V-8 or even a radical twin-turbo V-6.

2014: An M version of the next-gen 1-series may arrive powered by a twin-turbo inline-four. BMW is looking at the business case before any engineering plans are made, but the goal would be about 300 horsepower with a 2900-pound curb weight.

2015: The next M3 will be the “best” M3 ever and faster than today’s car, said Willisch. Work on the future M3 hasn’t begun, but an inline-six and a V-6 are both being considered. Expect E30-like levels of mayhem.


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/bmw_performance_m_power/future_bmw_m_models_and_the_2010_bmw_x6_m_x5_m_int erview

In two words: No. Way.

BMW cars get heavier and heavier and heavier every year. Just look at their M3 flagship sedan:

1986 E30: 2811 lbs
1992: E36: 3219 lbs
2000: E46: 3415 lbs
2007: E90: 3700 lbs (4115 lbs for the convertible)

Look at the M5:
1985 E28: 3417lbs
1989 E34: 3682lbs
1998 E39: 4026lbs
2005 E60: 4310lbs

The same applies to every single other car in the line up. The 1-series right now "only" weights 3190lbs with the turbo engine, but if these trends are anything to go by, I bet the next generation will tip the scales somewhere north of 3300...
BMW makes fantastic cars, but they are not meant to be sportscars; they are luxury saloons designed to be technologically advanced and comfortable. I bet the seats in a modern BMW weight 100lbs each. And they wouldn't know how to make a lightweight vehicle if their life depended on it.

There will never be a 2900lbs BMW again. Ever...

It's not absurd, it's where they are headed. Look at their engine lineup. Boosted cars are both easier to extract power out of and easier to get past emissions testing.

I don't disagree with you there, I was simply asking what everyone's take is on the article. MB went from I6's to V6's a while back so I don't doubt it can/would be done but BMW has built their reputation on I6s. People have come to expect that silky smooth idle that you can't get with a V.

I love the sound some V's make, like the narrow angle that VW used in the R32 produced one of the sexiest factory 6cyl sound I've heard. They also take up less space and going the twin route are easier to work with(compared to the N54 that is barely squeezing stock equipment in).

But like PL said, a 2900# car is absolutely unrealistic with todays standards and the way things are going without using expensive composites that will drive the price up significantly. Take the current 1-series with the 128i at 3197# and the 135i at 3420#. Now because it's an M it's going to have beefed up brakes, leather, 60-way adjustable seats(btw E36 M3 power seats were 87# each) now how do you do that and shave off 500#? Sure they say 4cyl vs 6 so that's some weight there, but where else is it gonna come from? But remaking the M1 would certainly turn some heads and I don't even want to touch that debate.

As for the M5, I could see the small displacement 8 but a 6? I hope not in an M5, to keep up with the current 500hp beasts they would have to be pretty extreme while maintaining emissions and longevity.

That all being said, I would love to see a FI M-car and I do think that it's the route they will go next. My concern is the engine layout they will choose. Sorry for the essay, I'm pretty bored and waiting for Jeff.

E36 M3 power seats are not 87#'s each. I just swapped a pair no more than a week ago. 60# sure, 90? hahaha no. You do realize that the new blocks are magnesium casings right? Super light. Lots of EASY bits can be shaved to keep creature comforts and drop 500# in curb weight. Your rant and opinions and completely misplaced.

Oh yeah, and it's already been basically confirmed the next gen M5 is a TTv8 and BMW has no V6's in testing right now so no point in even speculating on those.

There is a large range on the vaders with the manual, manual heats, power, and power heated then leather vs cloth. I remember when I pulled my dove power/heated vaders out and weighed them(because accurate info is impossible to find) they were in the 80s. I don't doubt you had 60# vaders but they weren't power/heated. Based on the quick searching I just did on BF.c the power vaders are 75#.

I also didn't deny the V8TT for the M5 I said there is no way you would see a 6 in an M5 ever again. As far as weight goes, I said it is possible but not without significantly raising the price.

You also need to remember CAFE numbers.

The fuel economy is killing them with larger displacement engines. Audi will be doing the same thing.

The X6m is looking pretty good to me......

BMW makes fantastic cars, but they are not meant to be sportscars; they are luxury saloons designed to be technologically advanced and comfortable. I bet the seats in a modern BMW weight 100lbs each. And they wouldn't know how to make a lightweight vehicle if their life depended on it.

There will never be a 2900lbs BMW again. Ever...

What???

What???

Don't take my word for it. Pick your favorite BMW and search for "BMW X Classification". The M3 is classified as a "Coupe" and the M5 is a "Midsize Sedan". There is nothing "sportscar" like about a 4300 pound car, even if it makes 500HP ;)

Don't take my word for it. Pick your favorite BMW and search for "BMW X Classification". The M3 is classified as a "Coupe" and the M5 is a "Midsize Sedan". There is nothing "sportscar" like about a 4300 pound car, even if it makes 500HP ;)

Well lets take an '03 M3 and an '03 Vette around the track and see who wins?

M3 ftw ^^^

Well lets take an '03 M3 and an '03 Vette around the track and see who wins?

You are CLEARLY missing the point.

The M3 is not a sportscar. It is a coupe. Wether it might be faster than a 6 year old base model chevrolet is immaterial. Although I will point out that an 03 Corvette has a faster 0-60, faster 1/4 mile and similar skidpad numbers, while retailing for about 15K less.

Sportscar: " "An automobile equipped for racing, especially an aerodynamically shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at high speeds".

A 3417lbs 333hp 4 seat leather clad luxury cruiser is not a sportscar. It is a very nice car and it was decently fast, but it is not a sports car.

You are clearly missing the point. Just because it has 2 doors and looks "like this" and some editor puts it under the "coupe" column of his spreadsheet doesn't mean it's not a sports car. I define a sports car as one that can participate in motorsports. I think you'll be pretty hard pressed to find another production "luxury saloon" as you call it that can run around the track as fast as an M3 can. And I'm talking about the real track, not the fruity one that's roughly, oh, 1320 feet long. And if an F1-inspired V10 doesn't make your "midsize sedan" a sports car, then I'm not really sure what your criteria is.

I'm guessing what you're getting at is that your Corvette is a sports car? For what reasons?

Oh and btw, you'll find the M3 CSL (the "lightweight" vehicle bmw wouldn't know how to make "if their life depended on it") goes around the 'ring in almost exactly the same time as a C6 Z06. See here

That's not sporty? Just sayin...

You are clearly missing the point. Just because it has 2 doors and looks "like this" and some editor puts it under the "coupe" column of his spreadsheet doesn't mean it's not a sports car. I define a sports car as one that can participate in motorsports. I think you'll be pretty hard pressed to find another production "luxury saloon" as you call it that can run around the track as fast as an M3 can. And I'm talking about the real track, not the fruity one that's roughly, oh, 1320 feet long. And if an F1-inspired V10 doesn't make your "midsize sedan" a sports car, then I'm not really sure what your criteria is.

I'm guessing what you're getting at is that your Corvette is a sports car? For what reasons?

I don't recall saying anything about Corvettes? Where did that come from?
Look, if you think a BMW is a sports car, that's great; you can buy one, pay the insurance rate of a sedan, and dream that you are driving a sportscar :)
Is a Porshe Cayenne a sportscar too by your definition?
How about a Cadillac CTS-V?
Is anything halfway fast a sportscar?

Or maybe just the cars you like are sportscars ;)

Oh and btw, you'll find the M3 CSL (the "lightweight" vehicle bmw wouldn't know how to make "if their life depended on it") goes around the 'ring in almost exactly the same time as a C6 Z06. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times)

That's not sporty? Just sayin...

LOL...
What, a racecar is almost as fast as a mass produced factory vehicle backed by a 5 year warranty? You don't say... :rofl:

me driving a sedan:
YouTube - Nürburgring M3 CSL


EDIT: oh and actually wait til the real sedan passes me near the end

Breaking news: This just in: regular production cars can be made fast through modifications:
Is the VW Golf a sportscar?

YouTube - Red Devil golf

;)

Sam, You're a little off base with not calling an M3 'technically' a sports car. Breaking it down to classifications you will find that the M3 is in the same grouping as Aston Martins, Lotus', Corvettes, Vipers, turbo Porsche's and M5s. In the UK they call it 'Group 20' unfortunately we don't have anything in the states besides a generic coupe/sedan/vert and so on. Even with that though I can guarantee that insurance companies would consider the M cars higher risk than a standard 3/5 series. Just like they consider a Z06 higher risk than a standard vette.

I can see how Dan would take insult to what you said because he has an M and it knocked me a bit having owned an M car. That being said, I think both your definitions on what a sports car actually is are a bit skewed and you can't rely on wiki for them:p

I define a sports car as something designed to function and perform in a motorsports event. Because any car can participate and you don't need to be a racecar to be a sportscar:)

Now if you guys want to race it out, let me know and I'll come(hopefully with something that I can enjoy on the track too).


*Edit: Damn you guys got in like 4 posts while I was writing mine hahaha

I don't recall saying anything about Corvettes? Where did that come from?

My bad, I was thinking of the other thread (about the m6).



Is a Porshe Cayenne a sportscar too by your definition?

Yes.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2816617994_041fd8301c_o.jpg


How about a Cadillac CTS-V?


Yes.
http://themotorreport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/cadillac-cts-v-nurburgring.jpg


sports car
n. An automobile equipped for racing, especially an aerodynamically shaped one-passenger or two-passenger vehicle having a low center of gravity and steering and suspension designed for precise control at high speeds.


Look, if you think a BMW is a sports car, that's great; you can buy one, pay the insurance rate of a sedan, and dream that you are driving a sportscar :)


I will, just like I was dreaming I was a CL or two behind a DBS up to 100mph last night in my mass produced luxury coupe. Wait, that wasn't a dream! :D

Breaking news: This just in: regular production cars can be made fast through modifications:
Is the VW Golf a sportscar?

YouTube - Red Devil golf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w-71yu26ss)

;)

first, actually yes i think it is

second, can i buy that golf directly from VW?

I can see how Dan would take insult to what you said because he has an M and it knocked me a bit having owned an M car. That being said, I think both your definitions on what a sports car actually is are a bit skewed and you can't rely on wiki for them:p

Actually, I don't have an M3! That's Ian's! :p

actually i'm on a boat right now

with t-pain

Actually, I don't have an M3! That's Ian's! :p

Yeah yeah, once you go on a rally with a car it's like you have one:p

I need to find me a nice job so I can get back in the game.

first, actually yes i think it is

second, can i buy that golf directly from VW?



Yes.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2816617994_041fd8301c_o.jpg

I will, just like I was dreaming I was a CL or two behind a DBS up to 100mph last night in my mass produced luxury coupe. Wait, that wasn't a dream! :D

Allright, I guess under that definition anything is a sportscar ;)
My 10 year old Subaru with an STI engine swap, coilovers, swaybars, a bigger turbo, etc would destroy an M3 in a race. But it was still a cheap 4 seat econobox. I suppose that would be a sportscar for you too... I don't think we are going to agree on this one, so I'll just leave it at that.

i just fucked a mermaid

I think the best bet is to go by the people who take your money, i.e. the insurance company:p By their definition, anything that appeals to people under the age of 30 is sportscar. hahaha

Allright, I guess under that definition anything is a sportscar ;)
My 10 year old Subaru with an STI engine swap, coilovers, swaybars, a bigger turbo, etc would destroy an M3 in a race. But it was still a cheap 4 seat econobox. I suppose that would be a sportscar for you too... I don't think we are going to agree on this one, so I'll just leave it at that.

OK, but the AA supercharged M3 would destroy that in a race....we can keep going of course. And yes, that would have been a sports car.

If it's equipped to race, it's a sports car. That's motorsports. Unless there's another sport:YouTube - Top Gear - Toyota Aygo car football - BBC you participate in with your "sports car"?

My point is just that anything can be a quick, fun, sporty car. It doesn't have to be light, it doesn't have to be NA, it doesn't have to be a V8. And to say that BMW doesn't make sports cars is pretty crazy.

That's all.... :cool:

I got my flippie floppies.

i just fucked a mermaid

LOL I was gonna ask that after seeing your boat comments, but I got caught up in their little debate. You just get done your "meeting" as per the other thread?

LOL I was gonna ask that after seeing your boat comments, but I got caught up in their little debate. You just get done your "meeting" as per the other thread?

:rofl:

fuck trees i climb buoys

I think the best bet is to go by the people who take your money, i.e. the insurance company:p By their definition, anything that appeals to people under the age of 30 is sportscar. hahaha


actually haha yeah

also, my boat would destroy an m3 and an STI with an engine swap, coilovers, swaybars, and a bigger turbo in a race

LOL I was gonna ask that after seeing your boat comments, but I got caught up in their little debate. You just get done your "meeting" as per the other thread?


trust me i wish i actually had a meeting, but we ran out of office supplies

http://canyoufeel.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/t-pain-new-single.jpg

And to say that BMW doesn't make sports cars is pretty crazy.

That's all.... :cool:

I got my flippie floppies.

I never said BMW didn't make a sports car.
BMW has made some spectacular ones:

http://www.bmwx5.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bmw-z8-front-1_116.jpg

And some pretty good ones:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11242586/2003_BMW_Z4_2_5L.jpg

And a couple other really nice ones too like the M roadster... They all had one element in common: sacrificing space and comfort for handling and speed
The M3 and the M5 don't sacrifice either; they have power but are still comfortable luxury cars with all kinds of amenities; they are designed for a difference audience and are great at that, but they are not in the same class as a Z car for example; making a spacious car comfortable means a lot more weight, softer shocks, etc. There are compromises, which is why most people wouldn't consider it a sportscar, even though it is probably faster than some sportscars out there.

That's all.

actually haha yeah

also, my boat would destroy an m3 and an STI with an engine swap, coilovers, swaybars, and a bigger turbo in a race

Traction is for people without boats.... HOLLA

That's all.

http://i40.tinypic.com/jpzspt.jpg

Z8 may be a cool car....until it falls apart:p

M5 Sports car? No, not IMO. Super Saloon sure.

M3 a sports car? Yeah, it's a bridge between sports car and GT IMO, and a pretty damn good one at that.

Powerlabs just wants to be grouped with Miata's, it's ok ;)

M5 Sports car? No, not IMO. Super Saloon sure.

M3 a sports car? Yeah, it's a bridge between sports car and GT IMO, and a pretty damn good one at that.

Powerlabs just wants to be grouped with Miata's, it's ok ;)

or slightly slower in Dale's case:snky:

M5 Sports car? No, not IMO. Super Saloon sure.

M3 a sports car? Yeah, it's a bridge between sports car and GT IMO, and a pretty damn good one at that.

Powerlabs just wants to be grouped with Miata's, it's ok ;)

I love how this just *has* to do something with my car ;)...

I love how this just *has* to do something with my car ;)...
http://www.danmurray.net/pics/picard.jpg

http://revmat.ch/attachment.php?attachmentid=1014&stc=1&d=1241489920

Bwuahahahha.

I'm the king of the world just like leo

I'M ON A MUDDA FUKIN BOAT



coooooooooooold blooded

Hahahahahh!

I'M ON A MUDDA FUKIN BOAT



coooooooooooold blooded


coooooool

http://www.danmurray.net/pics/cool.png

http://revmat.ch/attachment.php?attachmentid=1015&stc=1&d=1241490976

sports car:
http://revmat.ch/attachment.php?attachmentid=1016&stc=1&d=1241491435

haha are you really making all these. funny as shit

A big blue watery road?

sports car:
http://revmat.ch/attachment.php?attachmentid=1016&stc=1&d=1241491435

I'M ON A MOTHA FUCKN SPORTS BOAT :picard:

I just noticed it's RHD, SIQQQ JDM.

What about a maxima
4dsc
BADDEST 4 DOOR ON THE BLOCK